Reverence for Death with Alua Arthur

Death doula, author and trainer, Alua Arthur, is a clear voice of what death could be if we brought it into the center of our lives. Alua brings her profound wisdom from confronting the existential and seemingly unfaceable realities of death. In this episode she breaks down the tastiest five layer fear of death cake and shares what’s possible for all of us when we hold death with reverence.

• Check out Alua’s Book Briefly Perfectly Human
• Going with Grace Death Doula Training
• Follow Alua on Instagram

Join us on our new Youtube channel for the Imposing Beauty on Our Future Livestream - get your tickets here!

Transcript

Prentis (00:00:06):

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Becoming the People with Prentis Hemphill. I recorded this episode about a month ago, I think, is my guess. And at the time I wasn't where I am right now, which is dealing with a very serious medical issue from a close family member. Um, I'll probably say more at another, at another time. But, um, just suffice to say, I am dealing with a lot of the themes and issues that we talk about in this episode of the podcast. And so, I guess what I really wanna say to us all is that we might think that these ideas, this planning around death and dying, is something we can put off for some other day. And I guess I want to be an example and say that, uh, we actually can't. The time is always right now. And as much as our culture and society tries to relegate this to some other time, it puts a lot of us at the end of our lives in crisis not to have thought about or planned out, um, how we wanna address not only our end of life, but our living even right now.

Prentis (00:01:23):

So this episode is an interview with IA Arthur, who, you know, it's a, I sometimes joke that I do this podcast in order to talk to the people I wanna talk to. And it has widely expanded my friend base, actually, to do this podcast. And Alua Arthur is one of these people that I felt such resonance with her work and her approach that she was already my friend in my mind, <laugh>. I, I'm glad to know through this podcast that that feeling was somewhat mutual. But Alua Arthur, to me, is such a clear voice on what dying could be in this culture, if we actually brought it into the Maine, if we brought it into the center of our lives of our community, that we didn't just put it off to the side, put it off for another day, that if we actually let it change how we live right now, that might have a significant impact on our experiences of our lives, our connections with our loved ones, and really, I think how we build the world as it is.

Prentis (00:02:30):

So, Alua Arthur, if you don't know, you should know, she is a death doula. She's a writer. She founded an organization called Going With Grace. She trains other death doulas. And she wrote this book called Briefly Perfectly Human a few years back that if you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It is a gorgeous meditation on living and dying that I think should be necessary reading for most, most of us. Um, she's set with so many dying people at the end of their lives and what she's brought back, the kind of wisdom she's brought back from sitting on that precipice alongside people is, uh, clarity really on the decisions we make every day. How we inhabit our lives as fully as possible. How we confront the existential and seemingly unfakeable challenges of dying, of transitioning, and how we maintain relationship as we make that transition.

Prentis (00:03:29):

There's a lot in here. I mean, I, I think she's done a really remarkable job of breaking down the components of living well and dying well in a way that a lot of people can actually approach. We do a little talking on what my plans are when my death comes around, and what I've thought through, and how well I've taken care of the people around me. So this is a timely episode. I think it's very personal, very close in for a lot of us. A lot of us have dealt with death, will be dealing with death will die <laugh>, all of us will die. And so this is an episode for, for everyone who wants to enter that transition into those transitions with wisdom, with grace, and with connection. So, I hope you enjoyed this episode with Alua Arthur. It was a really heart opening one for me and has become incredibly relevant right away.

Prentis (00:04:27):

Oh, and one more thing. I am hosting an event with some dear, dear friends of mine called Imposing Beauty on our future May 19th here in North Carolina. It will be me, Alexis Pauline Gumbs, Sonya Renee Taylor, and adrienne maree brown. In conversation and in friendship and fellowship, uh, live and in person. The in-person tickets are sold out, but there are live streaming tickets available, which we will have information for those in the show notes. We would love, love, love, uh, for you to join us in any way you can for what I think will be an incredible event of dreaming, um, of scheming about what our futures could be. The other thing I wanna remind you all is that Patreon is the primary way that we make this podcast happen. So if you feel compelled to, inspired to support what we're doing over here, please join us over on the Patreon. It's also a place where we are building community and conversation, sharing with each other about what's coming up on each of these episodes. So if you'd like to join us and support this very, very independent podcast, uh, please come find us over on the Patreon. We'd appreciate it. Enjoy the episode and talk soon.

Prentis (00:05:41):

Oh my goodness, Alua, I have been, I'm so nervous to talk to you 'cause I'm so excited to talk to you. I always say like, I started this podcast so that I could talk to the people who are, and I hope this isn't weird, but friends in my mind, and you are one of those people that I'm like, that's my, that's my friend in my head. That's

Alua (00:06:03):

My friend. We've been friends for a while, we just haven't met yet. You know what I mean? We've been friends. I know what I

Prentis (00:06:09):

Mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. I am, gosh, this is like the best. I feel so excited to talk to you. I've been such a fan and I don't really call myself a fan, but I've been such a fan of you and so appreciative of you and so challenged and stretched by you, which is like my favorite thing to feel with another human being. So I'm just so grateful to you. So grateful you said Yes. I can't believe it. I'm stoked.

Alua (00:06:34):

I'm thrilled. 'cause I feel exactly the same. Like ditto, everything you just said.

Prentis (00:06:40):

All right. I'm gonna try to deal with that and also ask questions, but, okay. I feel <laugh> very excited about that. Um, oh my gosh, so many things to ask you. And you know, the strangest thing has happened, which is this week I didn't even tell anybody I was interviewing you, but this week three people were talking to me about your book. I promise you. One was my partner, one my friend Kaji, my friend Denise. They all were like, have you read this book? Have you heard of this book? She's amazing. She's brilliant. And I was just like, I have a surprise for y'all, <laugh>.

Alua (00:07:13):

Oh, that feels really good to hear. 'cause it's been a couple years since it came out. And you know, you write it, you put it out, then you're like, well, what's next? But I guess other people are still finding it and doing what they will with it. So thank you for that.

Prentis (00:07:26):

Well, I mean, I think it just sits in such a, I mean, you've done so much work leading up to it. I, I, you know, it takes time for things to move through. And I'm like, you are really shifting the conversation. This many people are talking to me this week about it is incredible. And I mean, the thing is, I knew you from Instagram. I knew you from online. I knew how brilliant you were. And when I, back when I read your book, I was like, oh, she's a, she's a good writer. Thanks. You're actually a really beautiful writer. Um, which isn't always true. It doesn't always translate, especially from social media to books. But you're a really, really beautiful writer. Were you always a, was that always part of the path for you?

Alua (00:08:09):

No, I actually don't consider myself a writer at all. But then I got challenged on that once when I was sharing this with somebody at a writer's conference. And he was like, well, can you look back and see where you've been writing? And I've been keeping journals since I was 17. Like I, I emote through my writing, but I also shared that I started writing this book because the stories just needed to come out. And they were just like force coming out. And they were coming out by pen and paper, like I was writing, but I couldn't read anything I wrote 'cause I write like hieroglyphics. So then I had to stop and move to a computer. And then finally I wrote the things out. But I don't feel like a writer. I don't really consider myself a writer. But then I also hear that perhaps I just have not allowed myself to receive that. I am a writer. But I like it. I like the process.

Prentis (00:09:00):

Yeah. I mean, what, what was the process for you in, in writing this? And it seems like there was a lot of conjuring, remembering, bringing stories back to the forefront. What, what was that like for you in writing? It

Alua (00:09:10):

Was just like a force of story and word that needed to come out. I started writing in the early days of the pandemic, like right after the Tiger King and the toilet paper hoarding days. But you know mm-hmm. <laugh> when like, Disneyland was still closed, <laugh>, you know what I mean? Like that time <laugh> Right after that time, I remember. Yeah. Okay. Just to give a little bit of context, <laugh>. And I was noticing in my work how I was hearing the same things from people over and over again earlier when I'd like go out and see people, maybe the stories became a little bit more separate because there was so much more information around them. But then I was hearing like the through lines between clients, between people that were my students, between people that were living and needed end of life planning consultations, and also noticing the same through lines and myself.

Alua (00:09:58):

And I was like, hold on a minute. And I understand theoretically that we are all woven together in some way, you know, society and, uh, society culture kind of create differences between us. But we all kind of struggle with some of the more basic things and they look the same even though they're colored by, you know, other intersections. Um, so I started to pluck what those similar things were. And then the stories just started coming. They just, they flowed. I had, um, I had so much material that I'd written at some point. Uh, I mean, I was busier than I'd ever been in those days in the pandemic because we were talking about death all the time, and everybody wanted to talk about how we're dying and what we're thinking about it, and the grief that we were all experiencing. But then privately at the 4:00 AM hour, I'd be click clack, clacking. It's not dripping and crying and click clack, clacking. Just also trying to get it out. So that's, that was most of the process.

Prentis (00:10:57):

Wow. To think about it during that time that you're writing it during that time. 'cause I think that what was so present for so many of us, and you know, my mom was working in a hospital. She'd been a nurse for so many years. The way that people were dying alone was such a fixture at that time, isolated, alone. Especially in those early periods. It was just devastating to think about, to think about that. And so to have that be happening while you're writing about what feels like deep accompaniment up to the edge, you know, um, and how human that is as a process seems like a, a really stark kind of juxtaposition to be, to be writing in.

Alua (00:11:38):

It felt like it we're so human and we're human all the way up until we die. You know, we're just living, we're just in it. And it was such a time where I felt like so many of us were in it. And then we were also just really faced, confronted with our mortality. Because on TV every day we'd hear stories about people who died and the numbers, and they'd try to like, show us clips and images. And, um, I also remember there were times where people would behave in ways that I had a hard time understanding, except for if I was looking at it through the lens of their fear of death. And then that made it make sense. <laugh>, ooh, big exhales. Ooh. But our behavior, like the behavior that was just like, and what the, but when coming at it from the compassionate mortality lens, that created some context for it and softened me, but then, you know, made it that much more present that our fear of death is what was sitting at the center of all of that.

Prentis (00:12:39):

The fear of death piece is like, um, it's like a cake or something that I want to put in the middle of this. But I want us to like dig into that <laugh> so much. 'cause that's something I think about every single day. And before we get to that, that delicious rich cake of fear of death, I wanna talk about, you know, when I when I started reading you, I was like, I had this moment where I thought, well, death is all around her. The the person, the friend that you made in Cuba who was dying, um, your own family members, I was like, oh, death is all around her. And then I had this moment, I was like, no, death is all around me. Death is all around us. But you were staying with it, saying, present to it in a way that I think me and probably many others have a tendency or a training or fear that turns us away from it. And so that was a big shift for me in understanding, oh, you're not surrounded by death. We all, all surrounded by death and we're doing everything we can not to know that

Alua (00:13:45):

We live in death. We live in death. Death is surrounds us all the time. Sometimes I, I do this exercise with the death doula students to have them just being where they are in that moment. Look around and count the dying things around them or the dead things around them, just from where they currently are. You know, don't get up, don't go outside. You don't have to visit anybody. Just be where you are. And notice it's everywhere. Everywhere. Sometimes when they have a harder time, I say, well go in the fridge. Okay, you got probably a rot bag of spinach in there somewhere, that spinach that you haven't cooked, look at the vegetables. But when they have a hard time doing that, look at your body, look at your body, your nails, your skin, your teeth, your hair. Like it's everywhere. It's everywhere. But in a way that is, doesn't have to be terrifying and frightening when we recognize that it just exists with us consistently. Like we're, we're in process. Things are living and dying in a cycle around us and in us all the time.

Prentis (00:14:49):

Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Yeah. That feels very intimate when you say that. I can really feel that the, the reality of that. And you know, I have a a 4-year-old and she said to me, she was like, poppy, when you die, can I, can I watch you die? And can I have, what did she want from me? She wanted, like parts of me, she wanted my bones. She was like, can I have your bones when you die, <laugh>? And I was like, I get yeah, sure <laugh>, and don't you want me here? But there was something in her that's like, oh, you said this is gonna happen. This is something that just happens and I'm planning ahead. Like, can I have, can, can you make sure that I get your bones when you go

Alua (00:15:31):

<laugh>? I love the way she thinks.

Prentis (00:15:33):

Yeah, me too. Me too. Um, the body. The body. I feel like we are on, you know, a continuum. You and I, our work and the body. You're, you sit at a different sort of position than I do in relationship to the body. But you, I've heard you talk about the body, even in your writing, the way that you talk about your own, I'd never actually read anyone describe themselves in such a loving and thorough way, like a journey through who you are through your body. And it, it really, really struck me. I was like, oh, okay. IA knows something about the body that I think I'm just, I'm just learning. And I think I, I have this question for you of like, what, what do our bodies, from your vantage point from where you are, have to do with living and dying? Well, I spend so much time in enlivening the body, inhabiting the body, and then you sit at this different point where it's like, well, maybe there's something else.

Alua (00:16:39):

I think both of us consider bodies as a potential place where our freedom can exist, you know, uh, to borrow from the nat ministry, the body is a side of liberation. Like actually the place where the, the freedom can, can be as well. I, when I think about what death is, I don't know right? None of us actually know what it is. But one thing I've observed is that there is a process of transformation of the body. But that process of transformation starts at conception and carries all the way through, all the way through into death, through death, as my body will eventually decompose. And we'll collect those little bones, um, for your child, <laugh> <laugh>.

Alua (00:17:28):

It's so sweet and delicious. Yeah. And also, where did you get that from? But yes, we love it. We love it. We love it. We love it. Keep going, boo. You keep going in that direction. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. It's amazing. Uh, well, I have a thought about four year olds anyway. Four year olds are really thinking about object impermanence at that age. And so they're starting to think about people dying. They don't come back. And so I think it's part of the reason four year olds are just so curious about death overall. Um, but when I, when I think about the body, I think about all the changes that my body has gone through and will continue to go through. You know, we're in change at this moment as we speak, and it will continue to change all the way through my death. And what I try to bring awareness to is what it is right now and how I can love it right now. Because it's gonna be different in a little bit as I, you know, as I grow, things are changing. Like, I heard myself groan as I was getting outta bed this morning, and I was like, you sound like your dad, <laugh> girl <laugh>, uh, get it together. <laugh>.

Alua (00:18:30):

But the change, uh, the change with the constant change, not like, uh, accepting, being with, like embracing the change is tough in a society that wants us to stay perfect and youthful and not aging. Um, it can be tough to be with the changes.

Prentis (00:18:54):

Yeah. It's, to me, that is actually what embodiment is, is about my, my work is about is the being with what is,

Alua (00:19:03):

It's the same work, I think.

Prentis (00:19:05):

I think so. Yeah.

Alua (00:19:06):

It's just a different lens. Yeah. It comes with a different length of locks. <laugh>, <laugh>,

Prentis (00:19:16):

How long are yours now? Let me look at this. Oh, you cuddle.

Alua (00:19:20):

You got a bob going? Yeah. Oh,

Prentis (00:19:21):

You got a bob, you're so brave. Because I be thinking like, these gotta go, but I Exactly. I, I don't know what to do. So I think we're just gonna ride it out for a while.

Alua (00:19:29):

Yeah, I did until they were, you know, scraping the top of my bottom. And I was like, Ooh, this is too uncomfortable for me. Then they had to go.

Prentis (00:19:37):

And you worry about your edges. I worry about my edges. I wanna mine my edges. You know, I've seen tragedy strike to people's edges when their locks get too heavy. So,

Alua (00:19:46):

Exactly.

Prentis (00:19:47):

You know, <laugh> freedom. Keep those intact. Free

Alua (00:19:49):

The

Prentis (00:19:50):

Edges free, free the edges always, but also impermanence to the edges. 'cause they will go eventually <laugh>,

Alua (00:19:55):

They will go. And that's also part of aging, right? Like just the general thinning of the edges of our hair and the receding of the hairline. Like, that's happening. It's happening right now. It's gonna keep happening. <laugh>,

Prentis (00:20:08):

There's so much gr you know, it's like a small taste of the grief that I think we feel all the time to go, oh, my edges are receding in this moment. It's like those small grief. What what do we do with that? Or what have you learned in, in your work as a death doula about those small griefs that people have as they change? And maybe that accelerated change at the end where it's like, things are going quickly, things are going rapidly. How do we keep facing and turning into those, those small and maybe growing grief? You know,

Alua (00:20:37):

I think we just acknowledge them. I, I'm in a period of grief myself. There's a lot of change happening around me that is a little tricky. I find that right now I get to really live my work and, you know, I talk rah rah, death and dying, grief and loss all day long. And when you are in it, when I am in it, what I'm noticing is that I have some context or what it is that I'm experiencing, but it doesn't change the experience of it at all. You know, I have language for it. I can witness myself, but I'm still in it. There's, there's an element that really asks us just to continue to acknowledge that we are grieving, you know, to acknowledge the things that I'm experiencing as grief. Like, oh, oh, I want my edges to be something else. What else can I do? Trying to apply all these sows and Beyonce's serums to it. <laugh>. But Beyonce cannot ultimately save your edges. She can do a lot. She cannot save our edges also. And so just to acknowledge what it feels like to be like fighting against it, um, but just surrendering into what is ultimately, it's hard. It's really, really hard. So this, the little griefs, they, they don't make the big griefs any easier. But I think practicing the little griefs, acknowledging the little griefs, allows us to be able to maybe put sight on the big grief when it arrives.

Prentis (00:22:01):

It, it strikes me that this is, um, I'm like, what does it take to be alive? You know, the whole time that we're alive. It feels like a big question for, for me, and I think a lot of people, and the question around the work that I do is like, how do you stay as alive as possible? And you have moments where, you know, you need to dip out or do whatever it is that you need to do. And it it alive to the grief, alive to the fear alive, to the longing alive, and kind of engage in this somewhat excruciating <laugh>, but gorgeous experience that we have. And I know that you talk a lot about life being right now, and that death, putting that into a certain perspective that, you know, this, this reality that you will die. That I will die, that we will die, the people we know will die forces. Or maybe invites rather, um, this question of like, what, what are you, what are you doing right now? And I wonder if you could talk about that and also just talk about how you've seen that kind of question, um, shape people's ends, like how they choose to end.

Alua (00:23:11):

Yeah. It's, um, it's a rich one. It's a rich one. And I, to me, thinking about how I will meet my end is a thing that opened up the pathway back into life since I'd been depressed, like clinically depressed for quite some time, and was on a medical leave of absence from my work as a lawyer at the time. And then, you know, was just traveling, trying to, trying to find ways back into myself, back into my body, like back into my life overall. And meeting this stranger on this bus who had uterine cancer at the time, was a chance for me to really consider like illness and eventual death. 'cause she was unafraid to talk about her dying. Okay. I, I had never heard anybody be so open about mortality. And she was just, she put it all on the table. And in that conversation and the questions that I asked her, I started asking the same questions of myself.

Alua (00:24:05):

Like, you know, what kind of end do I want to meet? Will I greet her, me on my deathbed, like lovingly, or will I be resistant to it because of things that I didn't do? Or people, a person that I wasn't, or things that I didn't say or, and it felt really clear to me at the time that I wanted to meet my end. I wanted to meet the person that I met on my deathbed with, like, love and gratitude and be like, girl, we did it all right. We did this life as best as we could, as best as we could. As life has carried on since then. And life continues to meet me in various ways. I wanna continue to give myself a lot of latitude for the times where it doesn't feel like living all the way to the best. Right? Not like getting all that I can outta this life, but rather allowing myself to be honest and authentic about where I am.

Alua (00:25:01):

'cause that is also my best, you know, to meet myself and my grief and my sadness and the times where I don't feel like going to get everything out of this life. But the question of mortality just co consistently invites me back into my life. Like, keep asking myself, you know, on my deathbed, who do I wanna meet? Like who do I wanna meet and how do I meet this moment? How do I reconcile this moment with the person that I'll meet on my deathbed as well? When being with people as they approach the end of their lives, the question looks a little different because they're actually there. Like, there's not that much time left to go back. And so at that point it looks far more like reconciling the choices that they made. Um, allowing forgiveness of self or maybe not doing the things, or not seeing the things. Creating some context around the life that they actually had, uh, so that they can surrender into it as best as they can. It does not always look like kumbaya, by the way. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It doesn't always look like we did it.

Prentis (00:26:02):

This is where the fear is, is hitting me. And it really around the finality of it all, like, you come to that moment where the options close in. The choices close in, it's kind of like, what has happened has happened, and oh, what if you don't, what if you have regrets? Or what if I don't know how to forgive? And what if I, I can't remember how to surrender. There's all these fears of like, almost like I'm not being able to do it right. And the fear of what's to come. They're so, it feels like the fear is such a, I mean, that's the most potent fear that we have of, of that ultimate finality, you know?

Alua (00:26:42):

Yeah. The, the fear of death. Is it time to talk about the cake? Let's get in. We get the fear of death cake. Yum. <laugh>. Uh, I'm so happy that you think of it like a cake. 'cause for some people, it's just that like box that they wanna hide deep in the basement underneath all the other stuff that grandma gave them. I'm a weirdo. I love weirdos. <laugh>. I'm a weirdo too. Let's get weird. Okay, let's do it. Yeah. So, fear of death cake is a four layer cake. Okay. Not hierarchical. Five layer, I'd say there it exists in every part of our lives. It's just a question of seeing it. I turn believe that every fear is a fear of death. It's just often disguised as something else. Uh, and this theory largely comes from, uh, gosh, I can't, the name of the book is escaping me at this moment, at this moment.

Alua (00:27:30):

It will come back to me. Uh, but it's a terror management theory that says every fear is a fear of death. But I generally couch fears of death in like four or five major pots. Oh, I want this. Okay. You ready? Okay. The first is a fear generally about the process of the body. And it's a concern about what will happen, how it will happen. Will dine be painful? Uh, are my wishes gonna be honored? Like, what is, what is going to happen to me? That one is largely linked to our relationship with control, wanting to control the end, wanting to know how it all goes, and have some agency in it. Okay. The second major category is a fear of what, if anything, happens after we die. So the big questions about the afterlife, the questions about the unknown. Um, like, are my memories gonna survive?

Alua (00:28:24):

Does love exist after a death? Uh, does consciousness continue to exist after a death? Or is that all cappo once I die? So all the questions around what, if anything happens is a relationship around surrender mostly, um, like surrendering into the unknown. Another major category is a fear of missing out good old fashioned fomo. Ooh, that's me. Straight up. I heard it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I heard it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I heard it. Like, what if, you know the what ifs? Like, um, life continuing on after we die, our children growing without us. Like, I hear that from parents often. Like, I won't be around anymore to be with my kids. Um, devastating. Like just life will continue on. And that, that is a fear that is likely linked to our capacity for our presence. Like being with what is right now as opposed to spinning out about what will happen in the future. Yellow. Um, but it's also one that might be rooted in, um, uh, the bit of the ego. Like, it, it, it refuses to acknowledge that I am, but one, one note in this vast symphony that has existed for all time, you know? 'cause it says that I am the center of the story. It's got that main character energy to it.

Prentis (00:29:41):

Yes. Main character syndrome. Yes, yes,

Alua (00:29:43):

Yes. Oh, gay. But in fact, there are a whole bunch of main characters out here. <laugh>. Yeah. Mine just happens to be driven in brass and gold. Okay. <laugh>. The

Prentis (00:29:51):

Main, main,

Alua (00:29:52):

Main. The main main. The shiny one. Yeah. Uh, another one of these major categories of fear of death is a fear of her life. Not fully lived. Like the fear of not doing all the things. And it sounds a lot like, well, I can't die yet because I have yet to, it's like, yet, like, it hasn't happened yet. And so I cannot die. Like if I were to die today wouldn't be complete, you know? Yeah. And that, I think that's one that's around authenticity, really. Like, how do I live all of my life? How do I do all of my life with the time that I have? Another one is, and this one is just a little bit more amorphous, but I hear it all the time. It's about the fear of the death living in another person. You know, my person who cannot die. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The person who can't die. And that one is largely about avoidance. It's about avoidance of pain or avoidance of grief. Um, and so these like categories of fear of death all point back to the ways that we're living right now. And perhaps areas that we can strengthen or practice or like shore up.

Prentis (00:31:01):

Mm. Uh uh, can you break down the, the lessons again for the living? Because I think this is a such a key point for people.

Alua (00:31:07):

It's a tasty cake.

Prentis (00:31:09):

It's a, it look, it's very delicious. It's actually, it's got all the flavors, <laugh>,

Alua (00:31:16):

Every single taste.

Prentis (00:31:17):

Everything is in there. Okay. Fear of control. A fear of loss. Of control. That was

Alua (00:31:21):

Control. Yeah. Control. Control. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Surrender,

Prentis (00:31:26):

Surrender.

Alua (00:31:27):

Presence. Presence. Authenticity and avoidance. Pain, fear of pain.

Prentis (00:31:35):

Mm.

Alua (00:31:36):

Yeah,

Prentis (00:31:37):

It's good. It's really good. I think, I think it's so, I don't know. It's, it's instructive, but it's more than that. It's like none of that is happening. I mean, I've heard you say this, but none of that, none of those questions are being answered in some future time. Right. Those are questions that you can be with Exactly right now today,

Alua (00:31:58):

<laugh> right now, this

Prentis (00:31:59):

Moment,

Alua (00:32:00):

Whatever it is that you're grappling with, then they're, they are, they're juicy for every aspect of our lives. You know, like another thing that I really love about being with dying is that there's no part of our lives that my death won't touch. Like when I die, it's all dying, which means I get to look at every single part of it right now. Like everything, my relationships, my work, my body, my relationship to my body, my relationship to this earth, to the beings that inhabited with me. Like everything, everything my death has an impact on.

Prentis (00:32:33):

Wow. It strikes me as I've had, um, someone get close to death in my family very recently, and I really, I'm not gonna get into that, but I think the part of it that I always realize is like, when you die, everything that is left messy <laugh> that is left unclear, it kinda, the mess. The mess is there. The mess is there for somebody. The stuff is there for somebody. You're not taking it with you, you're going to wherever you're going or not going. But I find in families, and maybe it's just my family, it's like, I think it's a mix of the grief and love that people feel, but also the, like, you left me with all, you left me with all this mess. <laugh>, you left me with stuff that was undone. And I don't say that to like, you know, burden people that are making that transition, but it's like, yeah, it's all kind of there in that moment. It all, it's, it's here how you lived certainly influences those final moments. But also I think what, what your loved ones, what your community has on the other side, or the meaning they make on the other side is there too, it seems like to me, um,

Alua (00:33:43):

I would agree. I absolutely agree. I think that like how we plan and prepare for the end of life, it, it has an impact on the people that we love in some way. To me, it's like a real act of loving to like care for the people that will be caring for my stuff when I'm gone, by handling my stuff while I'm still living. You know, because then they're, they're grieving first of all. 'cause I am gone. But then they're also having to deal with bureaucracy and the bonnets that I haven't thrown away for three years. <laugh>, you know what I mean? My junk drawer. Like, why, you know, do it with solid, like get rid of a couple of those bonnets you're not using anymore.

Prentis (00:34:24):

Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right.

Alua (00:34:26):

How's your grief been since his family member died?

Prentis (00:34:29):

Well, um, he has, he, he is not, he's, he's still here. Oh, okay. He just got close and then bounced back. Um, but we went all the way there and then, you know, saw what was there. I'm like, oh crap. Um, we need to figure some things out and we all need to figure things out. I mean, I've just done my end of life planning, but, but I'm actually not sure. I kind of wanted to ask you because, you know, I've done where things go, who has to take things, whether it's, you know, the resources I have or whatever it is, where things go, what I want to happen to my body. I've done that part, how I want the ceremony to go. But what else? I, I'm sort of looking around and when I, I read your work, I'm like, what, what do I need to be paying attention to that maybe is outside of just the technical things of where things go, what are the other things I, I might consider for the people that, that love me? Great.

Alua (00:35:24):

Um, I'm so glad to hear that you've done some of it A plus. Thanks. Good job. <laugh>. Gold star. Thank you. Uh, let's see. Let's start with who will make your medical decisions for you in the event that you can't? All right. You got that done, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Got that. Okay. Great. Got that. Okay, so we have that part down. Um, we have your desires for life support or lack thereof. We got that done. That's

Prentis (00:35:48):

Good. Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Alua (00:35:48):

Okay. Great. Think of it with your values though. Not just I want it or I don't, but rather, what are the values that underwrite my living right now so that they can use that decision to forward into all the other decisions they'll make. And that's great. Um, consider your comfort and care. Like how do you wanna be cared for at the end of your life? How you know the ambiance that you want in the space. Bring in the sensory experience. Who do you want around? Are there things you wanna smell? Are there things you wanna see? Where do you wanna be? What does it look like? Like richly with detail, sensory detail. Wow.

Prentis (00:36:21):

Yeah. Hadn't thought about that. I hadn't thought about that. That's good. That's what

Alua (00:36:25):

A death do is for, correct. Yeah. Uh, you said you talked about your body and your services, so you know what's happening to your body and what

Prentis (00:36:33):

Hopefully a mushroom, a feast,

Alua (00:36:36):

A mu meaning that you

Prentis (00:36:40):

Mushrooms suit me up, let the mushrooms feast and, and, you know,

Alua (00:36:43):

Okay. And

Prentis (00:36:44):

Proliferate on me. Okay,

Alua (00:36:45):

Great. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Okay. Fantastic. Hope it's available by the time you're dying. Or

Prentis (00:36:49):

I have a claw or something that is, you know, the ecolo the most ecologically, um, sound option at the moment.

Alua (00:36:56):

Fantastic. We have two good ones for you. A natural burial, like a green burial, or just drop me in the ground. You like that one? Just as you are just in the ground. Fantastic. Yeah. You heard it here. Okay. <laugh>. Um, so you got your body figured out, you got your services figured out. Uh, you've got your possessions figured out. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Let's consider, uh, dependent care. Um, yep. Anything. Got it. Great. Fantastic. Also, including the special things in your relationship with this dependent that you would like future people to know. So get real clear on that stuff. Anything that you would like them to know and caring for my dependent, it's important for you to know that dot, dot, dot complete

Prentis (00:37:34):

That sense. That's really good point. Yeah. Really

Alua (00:37:35):

A good point. Rituals, nicknames, colors, secret code words, things that you two have so that whoever, uh, assumes the care afterward will also know these things and we'll be able to forward them through. Um, also consider, so a dependent pet care, all your basic biographical information and details, all the stuff, all the information about your life that you know that somebody will have a hard time figuring out after you die. Hmm. Um, consider also, you did all the online stuff, like all your passwords and email accounts and all that stuff.

Prentis (00:38:05):

I actually haven't done that. I should do that. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Alua (00:38:08):

Let's do that. Let's do that. Yep. Okay. And finances, how to get into the bank accounts. Who's, uh, has the right to get into the bank accounts, et cetera. Yes. Okay. Great. Um, uh, let's also consider

Prentis (00:38:19):

See me together. Yes.

Alua (00:38:20):

Let's get it together. <laugh>, your, this is a big one. Uh, two big ones. Um, your legacy less in terms of like the things that you leave, but rather who you, what they will say about you when you're gone. Like, what your life meant. Right?

Prentis (00:38:35):

So it's not like prentice love to wear beautiful gowns or something.

Alua (00:38:40):

<laugh> Yes. If that's not true, lies. Okay. I'm just checking. It sounds Maybe with a baseball cap on top. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And a denim jacket, toss it on top of the gown. <laugh>, uh, yeah. But like the truth of who you were, you know, who was I? Who was I? How do I wanna be remembered? What do I want people want people to say about me afterward, if anything at all. If there's anything that you'd like certain people to know, make sure that you say there. And then, um, and then this other part of end of life planning I find really juicy, and this is where people typically like, really starts to get into it, is thinking about the things that you loved while you were alive. Like, what was this life to you? You know, what was it comprised of? Like, what were the things that gave you goosebumps or the things that made it feel worth it when everything else felt like it was going straight into the garbage can, you know, what were the elements that living that were rich, um,

Prentis (00:39:34):

And sharing those with people. I mean, I, I have, um, one of the directives is like, you know, when I pass, I want everybody to dance. That's kind of mandatory. There has to be a dance party. And I have a, a, a growing playlist of songs that must be played. Um, and, and I'm saying, and I'm saying that to anybody listening to the people listening to this podcast right now. Um, when I go, you know, dance won't for me, <laugh>, please dance. Um, and as you're, as we were going through that, and I felt this when I was doing some of the planning, it's just, I can feel grief. I can feel all those fears that you were talking about. And I can feel how, um, arresting those fears are in me of like, oh, but I don't want to, oh, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna think about that.

Prentis (00:40:21):

I don't wanna do that because I don't want that to happen as though I have some control over it. And I, I'm struck by how embodied these that fear is, how, how primal that fear feels. And it almost has me go, like, I can understand why this fear permeates everything, why this fear permeates the world and our politics and the way that we structure society and these myths that we create about who's worth it and who's not, who's good and who's not. To me, that's all fear of death too. And I can feel in how primal it is, how I could almost create anything to escape that feeling. Do you know what I mean? Like how you could build a society that's trying to escape that feeling.

Alua (00:41:15):

Yes, I absolutely understand. I believe that all the systems and structures that are in place right now, that oppress are a direct relationship to our fear of death. I, I, I cannot believe that a society that reveres and holds death sacred can also hold transphobia and homophobia and racism and in any of those things. Because in order to revere death, I must acknowledge, um, and almost celebrate our unique and total human hood. Hmm. You know, I cannot drop bombs on people if I'm also thinking of them as complete humans. I can't. That's right. I can't.

Prentis (00:42:00):

That's right.

Alua (00:42:02):

Can't. So we built all these structures that keep us separate because we deny our basic humanity, which says that we will die. They will die. I will grieve, my people will grieve. Um, I live, I enjoy oranges and fried plantains, you know? Yeah.

Prentis (00:42:28):

Yeah. And, you know, I've often thought about oppression is like what we do actually to people's bodies under the weight of the stories that we tell. You know, how we try to organize the world so that certain things happen to certain bodies. And I think that about deaths too. And that, you know, what we're talking about and what I've laid out for my own plan is like my greatest wish. Like, I wish that I could die surrounded by my family. I hope that I long for that I wanna die listening to, I don't know, my favorite album. I wanna die in that way. And I don't know, I I, I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know. It could happen tomorrow. It could happened, you know, 10 years from now, who knows. And I think about oppression sometimes, and I'm like, oh, it's like expediting death for certain people in a million different ways. Um, it, it feels like the way that we do oppression to me is about controlling the death of other people in some ways. I don't know. Does that seem too dramatic a statement to say? Not

Alua (00:43:35):

To me.

Prentis (00:43:35):

That's what it feels like. Okay. <laugh>.

Alua (00:43:37):

Not at all. That's right On my alley. That's not dramatic at all. I would agree with you. I would absolutely agree with you. Because there's also an element of, like I was just saying, and in the same vein of oppression that denies me, it flattens me, you know? But I am whole, I am multicolored and faceted, but oppression flattens, um, when I, when I get to be with somebody as they're dying, as all parts of who they were, everything that they loved, their favorite video games, everything is dying. It's hard to deny what a rich and full and complete life they lived. You know, I honor it as they die. Like all parts of themselves. Even the parts that I don't know, the parts that maybe I don't understand, but I have compassion for, because I'm seeing that it meant something to them. Uh, this was their life. This was their body. This was the way that they moved their body through space and who it connected to and what it ate, and how it defecate. Like all the things Mm. About who they were. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Prentis (00:44:46):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Alua (00:44:47):

Um, I think that the practice of, I think that the study of, I think that the honoring of death breaks down the systems entirely. It can a call to, yeah. It's, it's a call to compassion, but it's also just a call to human hood, you know, it's like, see me, honor me, acknowledge me. Um, and when somebody's dying, there's no way you can't,

Prentis (00:45:19):

Oh, it breaks it all down. That is so, uh, something almost like, um, uh, like ma mathematical in the most beautiful way about that of like, um, what our avoidance of death builds, you know, all the structures and monuments and, you know, things that get built up around this deep fear of death. And then what the reverence. And I, I, I love that you keep saying that word reverence. What the reverence of death actually causes to crumble or fall away just because it doesn't make any sense when we honor each other that way. That's really hitting me.

Alua (00:45:56):

Hmm. Yeah. And from like, the worst of it, from like the deep oppression and the structures and the systems and all the isms and the famine and the genocide and all of the war, like all of that straight into also like the denial of like, uh, welfare benefits or monuments that we spend money to build after somebody dies or street names. You know, it's like you died main character energy over, there's a bunch of us over here. Now let's focus on these people. <laugh>

Prentis (00:46:38):

Insane. Um,

Alua (00:46:45):

That's

Prentis (00:46:45):

So real. It's so real. What, what do you, um, make of, this is kind of a big, uh, question, but I'm, you know, I often look at the world and I'm like, what are we trying to, I think one way you could think about is like, normalize or what's, you know, what's trying to, what's the story that's trying to be told? And when you mention like, just the mass death that we were witnessing, and I just feel like I have to, they were witnessing mass horrific death. And I feel like something is happening to the, I mean, even this week, I don't know when this episode's gonna come out, but the threat of, of mass death. I'm like, there's something that is trying to be in the specter of death or what death means, or a kind of cavalier way of talking about death or something that's happening. That, uh, and maybe I'm asking you about this word revere and what it means to revere death. And I think maybe you've already spoken to it, but there seems like there's something in there that maybe I need a little bit of, of like, you're, you're offering something different about death. It's not just naming death. It's not just seeing death. It's not just facing death. There's a reverence that you're pointing towards that does something different than the spectacle that I think can happen in this time of phones and social media. What does that reverence mean

Alua (00:48:15):

To you? Uh, I think what I, well, you tell me if I'm getting what you're saying, but to me it's the being with dying. That's where the reverence really comes in. It's the being with dying. Like honoring it, acknowledging it, letting it be, you know, not fixing, not rushing to save, but just allowing it and us to be as we are where we are. Uh, to me, that's reverent.

Prentis (00:48:42):

Hmm. I see. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I did that. Yeah. 'cause that, that fixing piece has really got in my crawl, so to speak, <laugh>. Oh, when you wrote about it in a good way. It just, it disturbs something in me to think about how we are with death when I've been close to someone who's going to die or close to death. Um, yes. Seeing and witnessing and people are myself. I gotta, there's something I can do. Right. Or make it right. And I, I I'm hearing what you're saying is like, it doesn't even go down that way. There isn't anything to fix at all. There are things to do and support, but fixing. Um, yeah. It's, it's something that I feel in me, an impulse that I feel in me. And I bet a lot of people feel that at the end.

Alua (00:49:28):

Many of us. Yeah. I think almost all of us. Well, it's also like so big and we wanna do something, but it's also our avoidance of pain. Or we wanna save people from our pain, or we wanna save them from their own pain or make it better for them somehow. But it doesn't ever make it better. It can't make it better, you know? I think what makes it better, and I'm using air quotes around better, is the witnessing of it. The presence of it. Like, if I can just be with it as opposed to trying to move it in some direction, that makes me feel less scared about my own death, it makes me feel less scared about pain, you know, because often when I'm trying to fix or make better, I don't want somebody to hurt, but they're hurting hurts me. And so here, take something to shove it or distract from it, or, uh, can we just be with each other while we're in pain, while we're dying, while everything seems to be falling apart, we wanna crawl into a cave. Like, how, how can I show up for my fellow human that way?

Prentis (00:50:32):

That's such a beautiful, um, something to orient around, you know? Can I, can we just be together in what's happening? And I'm, I'm wondering if there are you having been up close to so many deaths, if there are commonalities of things that people want at the end or ask for at the end.

Alua (00:50:56):

It's pretty individual.

Prentis (00:50:58):

Really.

Alua (00:50:59):

Yeah. It's very individual. But I love that. I, I think that, you know, if folks are gonna put big parameters around it mm-hmm <affirmative>. I'd say they want generally some peas.

Prentis (00:51:13):

Hmm.

Alua (00:51:15):

Um, I'm also often with people that have some awareness that dying is coming because there's a disease. And so that looks a little different than when there's a sudden death. Yeah. So generally they want some peace. They don't wanna be in pain. Um, although there was a guy who didn't want any pain medica medication at all. Wow. Um, at all. He said he wanted to live his death. I said, who?

Prentis (00:51:38):

Wow.

Alua (00:51:39):

He didn't wanna numb anything. Let me feel it all. Wow.

Prentis (00:51:43):

Gosh. That's, that's, yeah. That's tearing me up. Yeah.

Alua (00:51:48):

Yeah. I still have, I still have little goosebumps when I think about him. Um, yeah. I mean, it's not even like everybody wants their loved ones around or they want the people that care for them around, because many people wait until the people that love them have gone to the bathroom or to go get a snack or something, and then they die alone. You know? So people don't always want that either. Uh, I definitely, I know I don't want people standing over me like counting on my breasts and just like watching me like a hawk, yo, let me live. Yeah. Rather, let me die and pee. Let me get outta y.

Prentis (00:52:23):

Yeah, yeah,

Alua (00:52:23):

Yeah. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Lemme do this.

Prentis (00:52:26):

Oh, yeah. Uh, you said, you know, sometimes they wait till people go to the bathroom. You sense that there's, um, what is the source of the agency that you sense is like making that decision? Is it the body itself making that decision? Or, you know, can people, are people choosing in a way that you can decipher?

Alua (00:52:43):

I'm really curious about that too. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I'm really curious about that too. I'll say I see it a lot in mothers when their kids are there, their kids are watching, their kids are sitting vigil, and then the kid leaves a stretch or to go to the bathroom or to get a snack. Uh, I was sitting on a flight and somebody, we started chatting about, you know, work. And I'm always hesitant to tell people what I do on a plane because they're like, oh, she has come for me. This is my d I'm stuck. The reaper <laugh> we're going down. I knew it. Uh, but on this particular flight, we were chatting about it, and this man, grown man shared with me about his mother's death. And it had been like 20 something years. Uh, he was an older gentleman, um, and was so torn up about how she died when he stepped out. And like, I shouldn't have stepped out to take that phone call. I knew I shouldn't have done it years, decades later, still getting his goat. What was that term you used before? In my crawl?

Prentis (00:53:46):

In my crawl?

Alua (00:53:46):

I don't know that it sounds southern.

Prentis (00:53:48):

I'm southern <laugh>. Oh,

Alua (00:53:49):

Okay. Okay, okay. Yes. That, um, yeah. And it was, I think it still like traumatized him in a way. Like, it, it was so visceral as he was sharing this regret that he had. Um, yeah. So I, I just shared with him how often I see it, and I hope that provided a bit of a balm for

Prentis (00:54:11):

Him. Yeah. I mean, I, I did take some of that away from your writing of like, you know, I always defer to the wisdom of the body in so many ways, like what our bodies know and are doing and, you know, in the world that's different than what we might be thinking and our cognition. And there's something that feels trustworthy about, you know, the body knows. The body knows that we will die. Yeah. And whether or not I go in my mind, in my brain go, okay, now's the time my body is saying, now's the time <laugh>.

Alua (00:54:44):

Yep.

Prentis (00:54:45):

Body is

Alua (00:54:46):

Saying it, and no amount of resistance. Or I don't want to go, or really not wanting to, or trying really hard. Or even kind of what we were talking about earlier. If I have a lot of regrets, if I haven't forgiven myself, if I never say the words to the people that I love, if I never get a second, third, 18th book written, if I never do all these things, I'm still gonna die. Okay. It will happen anyway. Yeah. And so I choose to do those things to the best of my ability while I can. Um, the death will happen. Uh, there's also no part of me that can make it happen, you know, unless I choose, unless I willfully make that choice. Mm-hmm. Uh, I cannot manifest my death. Um, by talking about it, by thinking about it, by being present with it. It's gonna happen anyway. It's gonna happen anyway. May as well plan. I hear so many folks, and I gotta say, I'm gonna make another generalization, but I hear so many folks from West Africa, which I am, so it's fair to say. Um, and the Caribbean. Okay. Talking about, I thought you

Prentis (00:55:51):

Gonna say black folks generally, and I was with you

Alua (00:55:53):

Black folks, generally black folks. Generally black folks generally. But we cannot talk about it because we're gonna bring it

Prentis (00:56:00):

That part.

Alua (00:56:01):

Yeah. But I'm like, wait, you've been talking about a million dollars. Where is it? Oh, oh,

Speaker 4 (00:56:06):

<laugh>.

Prentis (00:56:09):

And it's actually the only certainty. So we think we're gonna bring it about by, talk about it. It's the only thing that's certain

Alua (00:56:15):

It's coming anyway.

Prentis (00:56:17):

Yeah.

Alua (00:56:18):

Anyway. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. It's not gonna come faster. It's not gonna come more painful. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away. It just means that we're ill prepared when the time actually comes and we end up leaving a big old mess for the people in our lives. Like, let's take care of them. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Prentis (00:56:36):

I wanna close us on this, um, on a question about surrender. 'cause it feels like, um, fear is such a big part of our avoidance of death, and you know, what you said of like, what happens when we get to the end, the things that we might be holding onto. But I wanna ask you like, what, what has all of this taught you about the practice and the willingness to surrender?

Alua (00:57:01):

Uh, that the willingness doesn't, the willingness, the surrender will happen anyway.

Alua (00:57:11):

You know, as we were just saying, the surrender will happen anyway. I will go into my death whether or not I'm willing to, I think that I may have an easier ride if I just say, okay, okay, okay, okay, fine. I'll put it down. I'll put it down. Um, I teach death doula students. And of the commonalities that I see amongst them, one is their, well, they're certainly like just very open to emotional depth and the, the, like, the curiosity about life and what this life is. Um, but they're also generally willing to say, I don't know, the willing to not be one who knows. Uh, because in the space of not knowing exists, the space of peer potential and the space of peer potential also exists. The, the surrender to whatever may come and whatever may be, you know, and that's like, it's such a rich place to be in.

Alua (00:58:14):

Uh, the students teach me that all the time. They remind me consistently. That I don't know is the thickest sweetest, most uncomfortable also place to be, but also to be alive is to be in a space of not knowing consistently is to be in a space of surrender. You. And I don't know what's gonna happen the very next moment, and yet we go right into it willingly, openly. You know, we're in the practice of surrender. We're in the practice of adaptability. We're, we're in the practice of just submitting ourselves to the unknown. I do it every single minute that I'm alive. I will do it also into my death

Prentis (00:58:55):

Every will. Thank you. Thank you for, you know, walking so many of us into that unknown space. It, it's a, it's a gift to even know that there are people that are willing to be as human, as courageous, as present, to offer that, um, when we really, really, really, really need it. And to go to that edge and bring back these lessons and these messages that I think we all need for how to live right now and how to die well and with thoughtfulness and, and love. So all my gratitude to you for everything that you do and how you offer it, you are a stunning offer to this world with a stunning life and contribution. Thank you.

Alua (00:59:40):

Wow. Well, I thank you so much for this time and this space and the work that you do, and the ways that you show up in the world. 'cause I just take so many of your nuggets and I put them in my pocket and take 'em on a nibble on them later. <laugh>, <laugh> Eat Cake. Oh man.

Prentis (01:00:02):

Becoming the People is produced by devon de Lena, sound engineered and edited by Michael Maine. Our theme song was created by Mayyadda. And if you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe, rate, and especially, especially leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. And if you haven't already, please join us over at the Patreon Prentis, Hemphill. We are having a great time over there building community learning together. Come join us. And as always, thank you for listening to Becoming the People.

Speaker 5 (01:00:32):

We Becoming the people, the, the we, the, the, the.